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| Do the ends justify the means? | ||
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| Jesus[tzahal] |
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![Jesus[tzahal]](/media/avatar/100x0/upload/mango_kiwi.1172003384.jpg)
Registered Member #530
Joined: Wed Jan 03 2007, 10:56PMPosts: 807 |
-Machiavelli Thoughts? |
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| Zero |
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I want to fuck your hand.
Registered Member #571
Joined: Thu Feb 15 2007, 09:59PMPosts: 2809 |
In my history class we actually spent alot of time reviewing this, and seeing how some rulers totally ruined their people's lives, but in the end it "somehow" worked out for the people.... even if it killed most of the community. IE. Communism in Russia. I actually watched 300 again tonight, and I was thinking about why Leonidas thought that from the very beginning, of getting his captain to round up 300 troups. how he thought from that early on... what he was gonna do against the persians... and why he felt Sparta as a whole had to do it? and he had to make a name for them like that? I mean, right when the troops were first brought together, he made sure they all had sons to pass on their family names. He basically told them right there THEY WILL DIE, and they still did it, and Leonidas still did it. It would all have to depend on the goal. I mean, in the end, if you do wretchid things to "win"(as ill call it), people know how much of a douchebag you were to make things work. So yeah, whatever you had to do for whoever got done, but you totally unjustified it by how you got it done. In the end, I dont believe "The ends justify the means" because, Achieving a goal is all about the JOURNEY on achieving it. If you work really hard at something, and put all the effort you can into doing it the right way, it makes reaching that goal that much better. but, if you cheat your way through it, and around obstacles to just get it done and get to the finish line, I mean fuck, even you start feeling like shit. My answer. Not at all. As for Machiavelli, he can shove it up his ass. always fucking hated that man. This phrase can only be attributed to those "select few" exceptions. |
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Registered Member #365
Joined: Thu Jan 01 1970, 12:00AMPosts: 513 |
did machiavelli write like a 2000 page book on how to be a leader? other than that I don't know whats going on in this thread. | ||
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| Pockyninja |
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Ruler of all that is pocky
Registered Member #28
Joined: Mon Nov 28 2005, 11:17PMPosts: 704 |
Depends on what the means are. Sometimes you must commit a evil dead to do good this is the basis of the dark hero one of my favorite chars. On the other hand is the amount of destruction and evil out weighs the benefits of the goal then no it doesn't. In reality the means justify the end. A good example is world war 2. Hitler promised to bring his country out of debt and pretty much make things better. He accomplished that and almost all of his promises. He did a great good for his people and brought most other country also out of debt he did so much good but his means for that were mass slaughter, starting a war, and all kinda horrible horrible things. In the end the means far out weigh the end and there for it is viewed as a very bad point in human history. On the other hand if you had to kill a terrorist to save 20 people then it is viewed positively because your means justified a good ending. Then there is prospective to consider. Another good example from WW2 is the atomic bomb. We stopped the war with the Japanese using it and wiped out a entire city to us the end justified the means and it is rarely thought about and usually not in a exstreemly negative concept that it should be. I am sure if you ask the Japanese they would not agree with this in fact it would be a horrible tragity not worth the end of the war. I am sure there are a lot better examples of the last part but really I cant think of any at the moment. My point being that the perspective of the person will largely determain if the means justified the end. |
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| Vincent Vega |
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Registered Member #578
Joined: Fri Feb 23 2007, 07:00AMPosts: 176 |
One of machiavelli's most interpreted quotes, and sadly, taken out of context throughout history to justify a great many misdeeds. but "The Prince" is true. Rule with fear rather than love, human nature demands it. Similar to the Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes, people need a strong ruler. Otherwise, as machiavelli once said, you get hippies. Well, he didnt say it, but its true. The quote is actually taken from a letter to one particular prince regarding a certain issue which is never mentioned, and expanded to just be a lone quote. |
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| Rusty |
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FTS Server Op
Registered Member #159
Joined: Wed Mar 01 2006, 06:33PMPosts: 2682 |
as quoted by most philosophers, "blah blah blah is a means to an end" and then they go about telling why and why not. I personally hate that phrase. |
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| nostie |
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Registered Member #185
Joined: Thu Mar 30 2006, 10:42PMPosts: 3167 |
Yes. If the "end" lasts. | ||
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| gLiTch |
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Anal Assassin
Registered Member #455
Joined: Mon Oct 09 2006, 04:58AMPosts: 3848 |
That phrase was made for assholes to sleep better at night. It makes you feel there "was no other way." I think its horse shit. See the movie "V for Vendetta" Its one of my favorite movies ever. LOTS of meaning to it. Int he movie, Mr. Cretey, was an asshole, who always thought the end justified the means. He wanted to poison the water treatment plant, and school, and killed something like 80,000 ppl. HIS OWN PPL. He created panic, and fear, and used that fear to get his own party member elected. Then by some miracle, a cure came.... And they all got what they wanted, to become rich, at their own peoples expense. To him, the end always justified the means. In the end, he got rich, power, and after all, kept the country in order. ORDER. But was it really worth killing 80,000 of your own ppl to get order? That movie, if no one has watched it, i advise you to take 2 and a half hours out of your life and watch it. There is a lot of story to it. GREAT ACTING, and i believe you will be satisfied. Edited Thu Aug 23 2007, 01:34PM |
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| Jesus[tzahal] |
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Registered Member #530
Joined: Wed Jan 03 2007, 10:56PM Posts: 807 |
V for Vendetta was a good movie... Onto what Vega said: You are right, my history or philosophy teacher (I don't remember which one it was too long ago) said "it is better to be feared as a king rather than to be loved" The reasonings are that if you are feared then the people will not take action against you; they are simply too afraid... If they love you, however, the what is stopping them from controlling you? Overthrowing you? You need an aspect of fear to be a strong leader. Pocky: Yes, Hitler promised a lot of things including prosperity, and he did grant Germany many of these things, but is exterminating an entire race and persecuting those who have different sexual orientation a justifiable mean? Do you think that Germany would keep the Japanese after they took over the rest of the world? Hell no! Hitler wanted an Aryan race which means that he would have in time killed every other person out there that did not have blonde hair and blue eyes. The end result: A "Superior" race. At the expense of billions of lives you cannot use this as an example of "the ends justify the means" because you are taking Utilitarianism right out of it. Utilitarianism is basically the greatest good for the greatest number of people... *this may be a little obscene but..* Would you rob a bank (stealing shitloads from shitloads -- but they're covered by insurance, so just shitloads from the bank) so that you could personally fund people to stop an act of terror? |
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| Pockyninja |
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Ruler of all that is pocky
Registered Member #28
Joined: Mon Nov 28 2005, 11:17PM Posts: 704 |
Jesus[tzahal wrote ... ] V for Vendetta was a good movie... Onto what Vega said: You are right, my history or philosophy teacher (I don't remember which one it was too long ago) said "it is better to be feared as a king rather than to be loved" The reasonings are that if you are feared then the people will not take action against you; they are simply too afraid... If they love you, however, the what is stopping them from controlling you? Overthrowing you? You need an aspect of fear to be a strong leader. Pocky: Yes, Hitler promised a lot of things including prosperity, and he did grant Germany many of these things, but is exterminating an entire race and persecuting those who have different sexual orientation a justifiable mean? Do you think that Germany would keep the Japanese after they took over the rest of the world? Hell no! Hitler wanted an Aryan race which means that he would have in time killed every other person out there that did not have blonde hair and blue eyes. The end result: A "Superior" race. At the expense of billions of lives you cannot use this as an example of "the ends justify the means" because you are taking Utilitarianism right out of it. Utilitarianism is basically the greatest good for the greatest number of people... *this may be a little obscene but..* Would you rob a bank (stealing shitloads from shitloads -- but they're covered by insurance, so just shitloads from the bank) so that you could personally fund people to stop an act of terror? Please read more carefully I said that his means didn't match his goals. He went way to far to archive his goal. I just listed the end result and then the means and said that the means far out weighed the end, In other words the prosperity came at such a high price that the end didn't justify the means. Second The whole point behind this is what you missed. I am saying The end dose not justify the means but the means justify the end. In other words how you accomplish a goal is how it will be viewed by others. No matter how great a good you do if your means were to harsh then you will not be remembered well. My point was that Hitler while a asshat who did horrible horrible things he did a great good also. This great good was about the size of a insect compared to the dragon sized evils he did. The whole point you missed was that the means justify the end. Edited Thu Aug 23 2007, 06:17PM |
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