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| The team Balance issue | ||
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| .neXTt |
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Registered Member #507
Joined: Thu Dec 14 2006, 01:42PMPosts: 539 |
emerican wrote ... there should be a mod that if you lose 10 times in a row it automatically forces the other team to knife you. although that probably wouldnt go so well. lawlawlawl emer nice idea i think the same. but hey. cha is right, last night i was there playing on T. not too long with night though cuz i had to go. but a lot of the reason cts were losing, (no offense night, you're not god....you can't wipe out the whole t team by yourself...) a lot of the reason ct were losing was because a lot of them were really pussy to really fight... i mean they have the skill to kill people, i've experienced it. its just that many of them wait until their whole team dies. a lot of the wins t gained was because a lot of the cts..like cha said, didn't have the balls to peek behind the corner. i mean last night was frekin ridiculous. cts were still crouching in front office when there were a minute left. cts in front hall. cts in back window -.- eventually t's just swarmed in as a team and killed them. if cts stuck together it'd work really well. actually i recall there was one round where cts rushed storage TOGETHER as a team and t's lost in about 30 seconds. there stacked teams my ass lol. |
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| Wildcard23 |
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Registered Member #514
Joined: Wed Dec 20 2006, 06:33AMPosts: 1067 |
Canoe wrote ... if cts stuck together it'd work really well. actually i recall there was one round where cts rushed storage TOGETHER as a team and t's lost in about 30 seconds. there stacked teams my ass lol. This sounds strangely like what I had typed in my post... I'm sueing for copyright infringement Canoob. LOLs!! 
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| A Drunk |
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Registered Member #437
Joined: Sat Sep 23 2006, 02:18AMPosts: 1224 |
But also, what if people just nade the shit out of storage like people do long hall? | ||
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| creativenate88 |
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Registered Member #545
Joined: Sun Jan 21 2007, 08:11PMPosts: 263 |
When i am at the college for some reason i cant get into any ft servers....so i am forced to play on some shitty servers. And on one it was a 24/7 office map, but the map changed....to office. I thought dam this would be nice on FTC, get the teams changed upevery so often. Ya DIGG? | ||
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| Ninca |
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Registered Member #561
Joined: Sun Feb 04 2007, 07:45AMPosts: 1109 |
creativenate88 wrote ... I played on that server, but it was a pain when dealing with money to always have a pistols only round every 15 rounds When i am at the college for some reason i cant get into any ft servers....so i am forced to play on some shitty servers. And on one it was a 24/7 office map, but the map changed....to office. I thought dam this would be nice on FTC, get the teams changed upevery so often. Ya DIGG? 
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| Knightrider |
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Meteor 2016
Registered Member #316
Joined: Mon Jun 26 2006, 09:14PMPosts: 3503 |
I wouldn't mind having a script that would swap the teams every so many rounds. In fact that would bring a huge diversity in players and give a couple of 'T' regulars some time to adjust to CT. I know there is a mod to do that but I don't know what it's called. Perhaps Alcohol if you think that is a good idea then you could consider giving it a shot for a couple of days to see how people like it. | ||
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| Ninca |
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Registered Member #561
Joined: Sun Feb 04 2007, 07:45AM Posts: 1109 |
Biggest problem with the mod, I noticed a bunch of people like playing until they reach "100 Kills," or something, with playing 15 rounds at a time, then switching teams, you can't rank up high scores as easily! | ||
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| alcosatz |
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FT Classic Op
Registered Member #39
Joined: Fri Dec 02 2005, 10:30PMPosts: 1545 |
Nightrider wrote ... Okay, tonight was my last straw. I had played the CT side all night and this is what I witnessed and had to deal with. 24/70 rounds that I was on CT was won. Now this states a huge issue on team balancing. The health did not even help us win because it was that bad. Nor did the cash every three rounds. No matter what weapon our team bought everyone was still just as shitty. A CT/T win count of 24/70 doesn't tell a very detailed story. I know a higher total count of T wins is frequent, but FTC can still be fun and challenging if the total team wins don't finish at a ratio of 1:1 at the end of the night. Instead of a total win count, a series of winning team streaks is helpful. See below. Nightrider wrote ... The reason I'm bringing this up is because I still don't think that this mod helps out any. It doesn't help skillwise at all. Was someone trying to convince you that cash and health increased skill? They are resources, and they can be used poorly or effectively -- you can't blame a script for SOME people (example: me) for playing poorly regardless of health/cash, but I would say that there's a pretty good chance that having full armor because of some extra cash, as well as the possibility of 25 extra health, will tip the odds of breaking an excessively long win streak by one team because there will be some skilled players that just need a bit of a bump in resources, and know how to use them well. This is a possibility and not a guarantee -- how does increasing the probably of ending a severely long win streak "not help at all?" Besides, having skilled players on your team can be a crap shoot. People are "resources" as well -- they can play poorly and ineffectively despite the often preconceived notion that teams will magically be fixed when a 3:1 player swaps off a stacked team. As others have stated in this thread, if you shut down an exceptionally skilled players tactics then they cease to be a major threat. Nightrider wrote ... I asked almost every 5 rounds for someone to come and help the CTs out and one person came over the whole night. And even then, we still got our asses whooped on. I tried to manually swap people myself, and even then, I still found us losing. It was so frustrating that after a while I couldn't even breathe right from anger. You swapped two people last night and they were a little over 30 minutes apart: L 03/13/2007 - 23:40:06: [MANI_ADMIN_PLUGIN] Admin [[FT] Nightrider] [STEAM_0:0:11226407] Executed : team swapped user [ShLd] [STEAM_0:1:10627839] Trust me on this one: I often feel powerless to fix teams despite my best efforts. Being an admin aware of team balance and actively trying to fix it does not always yield the best results. You have to consider that even though YOU may be upset with teams (as I often am), it may not matter that much to other players. This isn't to say you should merely make a swap and be ignorant of continued stackage, but there is only so much you can do at one time, and the results will be fleeting as more rounds go on. Just do your best and keep the overall goal of keeping people playing in perspective. Many players will see you trying to help and, even if the results are not 100% satisfactory for everyone involved, the fact that you're trying makes all the difference for them. It's funny because I should listen to my own advice at times... many people know I have a negative habit of blowing team balance perfection out of perspective... Anyway, I knew this little project of mine would come in handy at some point.  Pardon if this graph isn't decidedly professional looking -- I'm still getting a feel for graphing with rrdtool:-[link]- The above graph shows the times you were playing on the night of 3/13 into 3/14. The win streaks were definitely favored towards T's as they usually are; however, It doesn't look like balance was completely absent. There was obviously some rallying by CT's that produced some minor win streaks of their own. Nightrider wrote ... Something has to be done about the team balance issue. Every night I see the T's have at least 140 more wins then the CT's do. This is a problematic issue. Office is more of a T map imo, and I find that all of the higher skilled people tend to go to the T side. Team balance is a persistent issue. Based on how you describe the dire condition of team balance on FT Classic, I wouldn't be surprised that if you saw too many TK's in a few nights then you would be calling FF to be turned off! Nightrider wrote ... What I am suggesting is that more skilled players be swapped to the CT side daily, to stop the horrible balancing issue. Camping is still an issue no matter how much the rule is enforced, so I'm proposing that admins be required to be more strict. I usually warn 3 times, but I think it should be after the first warning. It's getting out of hand and no matter how harsh of an admin that I am nothing seems to help. The "horrible" balancing issue can be mitigated by admin intervention (or exacerbated, depending on the selection of swaps) just as the issue can be mitigated by giving cash and health to the losing team. The results of resource adjustment are more or less dependent on how particular teams choose to benefit from those adjustments. Again, it's a persistent problem, just like CT camping as you mention. No single action, whether it's the allocation of cash/health or a swap, the slaying of a CT camper, etc. is going to make everything groovy for the rest of the night. Just keep plugging away and do your best. Nightrider wrote ... I wish there was a good suggestion to help with this problem. I know it's just a game but it's not even fun anymore. I wish you wouldn't discard what is already available to deal with this problem. There are costs and consequences to any team balance solution and I believe our admins are more than capable of handling this problem (and others). Nightrider wrote ... I wouldn't mind having a script that would swap the teams every so many rounds. In fact that would bring a huge diversity in players and give a couple of 'T' regulars some time to adjust to CT. I know there is a mod to do that but I don't know what it's called. Perhaps Alcohol if you think that is a good idea then you could consider giving it a shot for a couple of days to see how people like it. Yes, I know there are mods out there to do this. Did you see what happened when we tried to run ETB and PTBx on FTC for a few weeks in the Fall of '05? Many people hated it, especially regulars and FT's at the time. Obviously we have a much different set of personnel now, but I'm fairly certain the reaction would be the same -- people hate having their freedom to play how and where they want removed. Ever noticed that there is a high probability that people piss and moan about being swapped by an admin? Try amplifying that anger by 1000% and you've got ETB/PTBx. I'm sure there are hundreds of people playing CS:S that would jump at the opportunity to play on a ETB/PTBx-enabled server, but unfortunately we only have access to a small portion of those people. Some people are indifferent and couldn't care less where they play, but copious amounts of people stomp their feet when they feel restricted in their team selection. The goal of team balance is to keep people happy, but you offer no suggestions or acknowledgment of the people that will not tolerate mod/script-enforced balance. I'm not opposed to having a more passive method of automating team balance. For example, cash for the losers of three rounds, +25 health on five and a swap of a skilled player on the stacked team with a noob (a.k.a. me!) from the other team after, say, ten rounds. Sounds simple, right? It's not, and it's been explained elsewhere, like this thread you posted on: -[link]- Notice where Jigg says: jigg4joe wrote ... i'm against auto teamswapping through script, there are too many factors/variables to consider. would you switch based on skill? new people who come into the server might not have all the skill pts as a reg, but they could be twice as good. ever have an off day? got a bunch of skill but switching me over when i'm 5-20 is not going to help. While I'm not one to back down from a programming challenge of "too many factors/variables to consider," he DOES make a good point that it would take a very well-designed script/mod to make effective swaps. I don't think it's impossible, but time and effort to develop and test such a mod/script is a luxury I lack at this point. I am fond of stats analysis, and have put a bit of time into is giving admins and players access to team performance data. The graph I linked above is only a start, and there is much more in the works. People can use this type of information as they see fit or discard it as useless -- the important concept is that the decision to act on that data is up to human discretion. Listen, Nightrider, I'm not trying to crap on your idea or concern but you haven't opened my eyes to anything of which I am not already aware. Your interest in approaching the ongoing challenge of team balance is appreciated! I think you just have to redouble your efforts and not beat yourself up (or others AND myself, like I tend to do) when things don't go so well. I think our efforts as admins/ops to address team balance IS appreciated more often than not, and you have to keep that in mind at all time. Anyway, thanks to those skilled people out there that offer to be switched or do it without asking. Hopefully the trend catches on, and the reliance on scripts or admin intervention to balance teams becomes less abrasive. Also thanks to others who contributed to this thread! I always find it interesting to share opinions on team balance! |
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| SayUrPrayers OR |
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Registered Member #572
Joined: Thu Feb 15 2007, 10:42PMPosts: 53 |
i can understand what night is saying cuz i have been seeing that same thing. i will be playing on the t's and then i was been kicked to the ct team so that someone else that is beeter can get on the t's side. i have seen this happen many times. the better player could see this and go to the other team to make it even. | ||
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| Rollins |
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Registered Member #576
Joined: Wed Feb 21 2007, 06:56PMPosts: 29 |
I completely agree with you on this issue. I have also found the same problem, and it does get very frustrating losing round after round after round. | ||
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