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| Wave |
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Registered Member #857
Joined: Tue Sep 04 2007, 09:22PMPosts: 124 |
lol, so we're not even on topic anymore. can we get a final ruling on whether or not we're going to bring back yTB? i motion we bring it back. | ||
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| Jesus[tzahal] |
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![Jesus[tzahal]](/media/avatar/100x0/upload/mango_kiwi.1172003384.jpg)
Registered Member #530
Joined: Wed Jan 03 2007, 10:56PMPosts: 807 |
Wave wrote ... In that case I will lock the thread until Alcohol-Powered posts
lol, so we're not even on topic anymore. can we get a final ruling on whether or not we're going to bring back yTB? i motion we bring it back. |
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| alcosatz |
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FT Classic Op
Registered Member #39
Joined: Fri Dec 02 2005, 10:30PMPosts: 1545 |
I've got a few ideas on how to solve this problem but simply adding yTB back in does not seem like an adequate solution. I see every reason to assume that the frequent complaints about yTB will resurface if it were re-enabled with the same parameters. We can try padding the number of rounds in between yTB swaps or increase the threshold of K-D (or KPD mode as well) before a swap is attempted. There are also other options for TB scripts/plugins. I've sort of come full circle on the idea that live information about team balance is good, and having a script kick in and autobalance when things look really bad is more gentle on the average player (and prevents him or her from flipping out and complaining about the "gay tb script"). It seems that some type of skill-related autobalance is positive when admins are not around (or not paying attention), but an aggressive script/plugin, or widely misunderstood script/plugin, leads to more harm than leaving teams severely imbalanced. There are a few options I need to test before I feel comfortable with changing anything at this point. As I said, I am apprehensive about dropping yTB back in, as-is, and getting the same negative feedback about how it works. I'm open to suggestions, and hopefully I'll get back to this thread later this week with some more info. |
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| Wave |
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Registered Member #857
Joined: Tue Sep 04 2007, 09:22PM Posts: 124 |
I've ben on other servers where they've been using eTB instead of yTB. Is this any different, and if so, would it work better? | ||
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| alcosatz |
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FT Classic Op
Registered Member #39
Joined: Fri Dec 02 2005, 10:30PM Posts: 1545 |
If you mean Eric's Team Balancer (eTB)... it's kinda limited in some aspects. I remember testing it well over a year ago, and the "friends" feature is a great idea, but I don't believe it could swap live players. This looks interesting: -[link]- I have no idea how well it works, but the concept of tracking skill across several sessions sets it apart from most (if not all) the other team balancers I've seen. What do you think? |
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| Wave |
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Registered Member #857
Joined: Tue Sep 04 2007, 09:22PM Posts: 124 |
First, I'd like to apologize for starting a new thread on the same subject (though i thought it was a little different because my request wasn't for yTB specifically, but any form of team balancing, admin or otherwise). Second, I concede your point that shuffling players does not always make the gameplay fair. However, it doesn't hurt, and more often than not, it does somewhat balance the teams. I can only say that back when we had yTB, or admin team balancing, it was rare to see either team lose more then 3 or 4 times in a row. But currently, we can have teams that lose 8-10 times in a row, then get one win, the resume their losing streak. I'm just saying that I feel like I'm the only one who wants to address this problem. I can't say for sure that the server is more often unbalanced than balanced, because one would need to be on the server at all times to make that judgement. I'm only saying that to me, it seems everytime I'm on the server, the T team is packed and stacked, so CT is my only choice and I lose 6 or 7 rounds in a row and I say screw it, I'll play Bioshock. |
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| alcosatz |
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FT Classic Op
Registered Member #39
Joined: Fri Dec 02 2005, 10:30PM Posts: 1545 |
Wave wrote ... First, I'd like to apologize for starting a new thread on the same subject (though i thought it was a little different because my request wasn't for yTB specifically, but any form of team balancing, admin or otherwise). It wasn't a big deal to me, and I wasn't completely sure if closing your other thread was the best thing to do, but... I did it. I would like to keep one thread going to prevent scattering too many different ideas when the concept revolves around the same topic. No need to apologize. Wave wrote ... Second, I concede your point that shuffling players does not always make the gameplay fair. However, it doesn't hurt, and more often than not, it does somewhat balance the teams. I can only say that back when we had yTB, or admin team balancing, it was rare to see either team lose more then 3 or 4 times in a row. But currently, we can have teams that lose 8-10 times in a row, then get one win, the resume their losing streak. I'm just saying that I feel like I'm the only one who wants to address this problem. Sure, team balance has varying degrees of effectiveness. The goal should be to actually balance teams and, in the process, agitate players the least. This is where I disagree that it doesn't hurt--it certainly DOES hurt, and yTB certainly soured a lot of players' experience on FTC. Others have suggested that the grumbling over yTB wasn't really, um, negative. Generally speaking, calling something "a piece of shit" as was often uttered of yTB, seems like a reasonable indication that many players would enjoy FTC more sans yTB. The tough part of this situation is that you and others would like to see some (more) team balancing done (there is still a little bit of intervention by admins and regs), but others thought yTB was too aggressive, flawed, or simply "a piece of shit."  Wave wrote ... I can't say for sure that the server is more often unbalanced than balanced, because one would need to be on the server at all times to make that judgement. I'm only saying that to me, it seems everytime I'm on the server, the T team is packed and stacked, so CT is my only choice and I lose 6 or 7 rounds in a row and I say screw it, I'll play Bioshock. You only need to be in-game 24/7 to see if teams are balanced only if you trust what every player says concerning the topic. Many people, myself included, tend to blow imbalance out of proportion. The logical solution to me is to take feelings, alcohol consumption, etc. out of the equation and quantify team/individual performance. This is only as good as the system with which the factors are quantified and then evaluated for imbalance. yTB had flaws AND was misunderstood as far as the whole kills minus deaths leading to swaps algorithm was concerned. Considering the flaws and misunderstood workings of yTB seems like a good idea to me. I suppose I was too flustered by the lack of constructive criticism in-game and apparent ignorance to the benefit of team balance. It is nice to see that others appreciate it, and I'm the original whiner about team balance on FTC. I've mellowed out a little over the past several months, and Awse would be proud of me "manning up" when I play on a underskilled (myself included) CT team.  I will probably regret this, but I've started working on a SourceMod team balance plugin to address what I see wrong with yTB, dalto's "Team Balancer" SM plugin (which I tested this last weekend... kinda sloppy), ETB, and PTBx. I'd say I'm well over 50% done and it's looking very solid so far. There are multiple factors used to gauge individual and team performance including: session KDR, historical KDR (past 30 days), current team win streak, and difference in team wins over the past 20 rounds. All of these factors are used in a gradual approach to determine trend-imbalance, not simply evaluating a single round of play and making waves by swapping players. Also worth mentioning is that regular 'ol players will be able to (mildly) influence the speed of triggering an autoswap, and manual admin swaps will be factored into future autoswap decisions (i.e. an admin swapping two players for balance will cause the script to 'back off' and not try to autoswap in the next few rounds). Like I said, I'll probably regret putting this much effort into it but I'm finding this project fun. Hopefully the above will pique your interest, and I'll try to post more specifics in the next few days. Suggestions or criticisms of things to avoid, common gripes about previous team balance methods etc. are all welcome. |
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| Jesus[tzahal] |
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Registered Member #530
Joined: Wed Jan 03 2007, 10:56PM Posts: 807 |
Careful, the Orange box might get you! |
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| Litz|SS |
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Registered Member #732
Joined: Wed Jun 06 2007, 03:19PMPosts: 14 |
[sarcasm]Let me first start by saying that Kever and Steel hack... And Bob toggles when he's using the para... I hate you all. [/sarcasm] [totally serious]I'm 100% for some sort of team balance plugin even if it isnt perfect. As long as it mixes things up, thats good enough for me. Lately I've been caught on many teams where I get more damage from my team then the other. That wouldnt be so bad except that in most cases the other team is heavily stacked. [/totally serious] [sarcasm]You should listen to me because I have been #1 on the server recently and that makes me important.[/sarcasm] Oh and thanks Alcohol Powered for addressing the issue. |
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| 5 Dollar Holler |
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Registered Member #494
Joined: Tue Nov 21 2006, 12:47AMPosts: 381 |
Good to see something is in the works, coming off the the server in frustration due to an insanely stacked T team. I think in my time just now it was CT 5 wins, T wins around 30. @ Litz: Also, you should listen to me because i'm one of the few who have more CT joins than T joins on Pstats, therefore im not a stat whore and care more about balance than personal kills
Edited Sat Oct 06 2007, 10:31PM
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