Punishment Escalation Procedure

alcosatz, Mon Jan 02 2006, 03:42AM

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and decided something needs to be done about admin accountability concerning the punishment of players. I will be the first to admit that I personally do not have an established method of punishing players. Just about anything goes with me. I've done some harsh bans for minor acts of stupidity on the part of our players and I don't believe I have set the correct tone for how admins deal with punishment, kicks, and bans.

These are the steps I would like admins to follow when punishing a player for bad behavior. All admins should follow this, unless you are dealing with a repeat offender. "Repeat offender" means in the last few hours. Do not continually abuse a player over several days without talking to a lead admin or server operator first.

1. Warn the player with admin say (green text) that they will be punished and why. I need everyone to do this for accountability issues so I can see in the logs that you warned them first. All admin have the admin chat ability.
Examples:
"Stop CT spawn camping, you're going to get slayed next time."
"Stop mic spamming or a mute is on the way..."
"Stop grenade spamming at T spawn, or I'll set you to zero cash next round so you can't buy anything."
2. Punish the player with something "light" to let them know you're serious. Mute, blindness, slay, slap to 1 health, etc. are acceptable first punishments. Banning a player at this point is not acceptable.
3. Give the player a chance to learn from their mistake. For example, if you have muted someone, remove the mute after five or ten minutes. Do not continue to punish a player unless he or she continues to break the rules!
4. If the player appears to have stopped being obnoxious, then leave him alone. Kick the player if he continues.
5. If the player returns and complains, remind them via admin say why he or she was kicked.
Example:
"You were warned not to CT spawn camp."
"Post on forums if you don't like it."
"Play or leave, stop arguing."
6. If the player continues to argue or break rules, warn him or her and then ban (if you are Level 2 Admin or higher).
If you are a Level 1 Admin then try to track down a higher level admin to ban the player.
Example:
"I told you not to CT spawn camp, or argue with me." "You're being banned 30 minutes for not following rules."

Here is the summary that you can scribble on a post-it note and stick on your monitor. wink

1. Warn
2. Punish
3. Wait
4. Kick
5. Warn
6. Ban

Does anyone see any problems with this process? I know it adds a bit of extra work for admins, but this gives me a clear trail of log (especially the admin chat) entries that I can follow to resolve almost any disputes of admin abuse.

Let me know what you all think, thanks.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Kalibur, Mon Jan 02 2006, 04:10AM

I like this, the steps and rules are great it will defiantly help the players and the server. I just hope all the admen?s can fallow the steps. Also please admen?s DON?T abuse the admin talk! (green text) it is there so you can warn people and tell them stuff, its not there for you to play with. Its there so you can make the server a better place when admen?s abuse the admin say (green text) it fucks with other players. So please, only use admin say (green text) when it?s really necessary!
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Mon Jan 02 2006, 04:17AM

Thanks, Kalibur. I incorporated some of the suggestions you made about how admins should handle particular situations (obnoxious talking, teamkilling, etc). I like having a set of loose guidelines like the above rather than a set of steps for each situation.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Wulfram, Mon Jan 02 2006, 08:52AM

Damn, now we got steps? This is gonna be difficult to follow. I don't know if I will be able to repeat myself 6 times... I will try tho.... But If they don't lestin after 2 times, you think they gonna lestin at all?
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Mon Jan 02 2006, 09:32AM

Wulfram wrote ...
Damn, now we got steps? This is gonna be difficult to follow. I don't know if I will be able to repeat myself 6 times... I will try tho.... But If they don't lestin after 2 times, you think they gonna lestin at all?

Yeah, repeating youself six times would suck. Good thing that's not what I'm requesting.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Omni, Mon Jan 02 2006, 06:38PM

should i still go through the procedure if for example- a CT runs through 3-5 of his teammate with a para 15 secs into the round? that to me seems i can skip to 30 min ban, or at least kick..... (note: i have not run into this personally but, i am just doing one of those "what if" situations....and trying to help) also, i think that there are situations that we would use a different system. maybe a different type of system for each type of offence? i donno, jsut brainstorming smile EDIT: i am starting to have a small problem with this system, at least for team violators....a player named "fluffy" joined at first i was surprised by his incredibly low latency (5) then i looked at his score... -1 and 1. i knew i was gonna have to do the procedure...i gave him his first warning like step 1 says. then he continues to TK. i punish him with a slay (step 2). he still TKS. so i go to step 3, waiting. HE STILL TKs! so i do step 4, kick. he joins again and instantly got Ts again. by now the players are frustrated that i haven't banned him and start to vote ban. they keep asking y i simply don't ban him, and i tell the about the procedure. and 'fluffy' says "lol, so this new procedure allows me 15 tks?' now i warn him again...he Tks again and i ban him. OK, now on to my point this incident needed an accelerated punishment procedure! not only did it allow the perpetrator to tk excessively(ironically he did tk XSV) but also because it took 3 times longer to punish him, it made 90% of the players mad and lose faith/trust in the admins..... [ Edited Mon Jan 02 2006, 07:11PM ]
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Mon Jan 02 2006, 07:32PM

Mani mod will take care of that for you at 5 TK's with an automatic 30 minute ban. What is the harm in using admin say to warn them first before they either get autobanned, or you warn them after a few TK's and then kick after another TK?

I think banning without warning is the wrong way to go. It sets a terrible example for other admins and tends to put the regulars on edge when several of them see someone being banned and have no idea why.

What other situations? I'd like some more examples.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
NavySeal, Mon Jan 02 2006, 08:17PM

I myself if he was tking everyround would do the following.
Warn Him
Slay Him
Warn-Kick
Warn
Ban.

Maybe skip the 3rd warn. Because why should we waste our time on a shit bag who is gonna keep tking and not only ruin our day but his fellow players day. I think alexh was not making this as 6commandments that must be followed as such. He was just setting up a guidline of punishment. Of course ur not gonna use this if someone is haxing. Thats were we come in to intepret this and try to do the best job we can. Thats why were admins, With Power comes responsibility. With responsibility comes problems. With Problems comes solutions.


This is my input.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
MiddleMan, Mon Jan 02 2006, 08:53PM

Good Ideas that should be followed. I would also bring out the point of common sence. If someone is being a camplete ass and by a majority all the other players are gettign annoyed it should be takin care of. Comon sence is a good way to go on allot of things but these procedures put a good stable procces into affect. Hope I got something across I think im rambling.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Omni, Tue Jan 03 2006, 03:54AM

alexh wrote ...
Mani mod will take care of that for you at 5 TK's with an automatic 30 minute ban. What is the harm in using admin say to warn them first before they either get autobanned, or you warn them after a few TK's and then kick after another TK?

I think banning without warning is the wrong way to go. It sets a terrible example for other admins and tends to put the regulars on edge when several of them see someone being banned and have no idea why.

What other situations? I'd like some more examples.

what i mean by other situation is that each type of offece should have its own system of warnings/punishments...again, restating what i sdi, for TK we should have a system, for nade spaming, mike spamming etc, should all have different ways of punishments...
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Tue Jan 03 2006, 04:27AM

Omni wrote ...
alexh wrote ...
Mani mod will take care of that for you at 5 TK's with an automatic 30 minute ban. What is the harm in using admin say to warn them first before they either get autobanned, or you warn them after a few TK's and then kick after another TK?

I think banning without warning is the wrong way to go. It sets a terrible example for other admins and tends to put the regulars on edge when several of them see someone being banned and have no idea why.

What other situations? I'd like some more examples.

what i mean by other situation is that each type of offece should have its own system of warnings/punishments...again, restating what i sdi, for TK we should have a system, for nade spaming, mike spamming etc, should all have different ways of punishments...

You slow everything down with having several systems, and doom admins to tripping over many different rules. How does the sequence of: warning, punishing, waiting for a response, kicking, warning, and banning fail?

I understand you're making a suggestion, and I appreciate that, but you need to explain how a single, simple process is inferior to several processes of punishment that take more time and effort for admins to learn and enforce.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Omni, Tue Jan 03 2006, 05:55PM

well, some siturations i think need faster respinse than a six stem system, and otheres can be more forgiving...so therefor if the offence is serious enough then it gets the harsher (is that a word?) system. sorta like the real law....kinda.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Tue Jan 03 2006, 09:29PM

Can you provide examples aside from hacking, which is a permanent ban anyways and doesn't fit well with the above rules?
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Wulfram, Tue Jan 03 2006, 10:30PM

But you did say that we would have to explain after each actual step, and warn every other. Thats alot of me typen, which I get tired of real quick.

*Goes and makes binds*
*bind "]" "HEY YOU! Stop breaking the rules or you will be punished"*
*bind "[" "You where punished for breaking the rules"*

Took care of that little problem.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Wulfram, Tue Jan 03 2006, 10:32PM

Say uh, some bitch comes in uh... Sucking yo dick... And I get jeolous and uh... Ban them?
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Omni, Tue Jan 03 2006, 11:17PM

alexh wrote ...
Can you provide examples aside from hacking, which is a permanent ban anyways and doesn't fit well with the above rules?

well what i mean is that all rules that people break have consequences, right? well some are more "dangerous" if u will, than others. so i think the most threatening one should receve faster punishments.
an example would be, that mike spamming is not as threatening to the game as say, Team Killing. so i think that there should be more specific punishments depending on the offence.

if some one Tks, it should not take six steps to make him stop. i say this b/c in those six steps it can greatly disrupt the game and its flow...
but i guess i am alone on this, every1 else that posted seems to like this so i might just drop it........
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
bleek, Tue Jan 03 2006, 11:32PM

Omni has something. If somebody TKs he gets warned. Tks again. Punished. Tks AGAIN! He gets kicked. Now that sets his TK record back to zero when he rejoins, so athe server wont automatically ban him. He TKs and get banned banned. Now my question is: If someone TKs after and admin tells him to stop it, and then again, shouldn't that allow an admin to skip from kick to ban? I mean the guy obviously is not listening. Just a thought. Omni I think your right (or at least on to something).
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Wulfram, Tue Jan 03 2006, 11:59PM

Omni, I got tired of arguen with ppl.

When I ban someone I useally tell alex why before I do so anyways, so I can useally avoid conflict. I have no idea why ppl can't get ahold of alex... He is prob the easiest person to get ahold of on the server.

Just get his work aim, his other aim, and his xfire. he is always on one of them.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Wed Jan 04 2006, 02:04AM

I think Omni has a good point as well, but it does nothing to address admin accountability which is why I'm trying to put this policy in place. This isn't about determining if TK'ers are bad and should be punished, or mic spammers, etc. This is about making sure admins are kicking and banning players responsibly.

There are several of you I trust to ban without justifying it to me or anyone else. I ban without warning at times as well, and it sets a terrible example for junior admins. It also intimidates regulars and potential regulars. While I agree that several rounds can be ruined by a few TK's, for example, several rounds can be ruined by admin abuse as well.

There are ways to get around this TK issue other than manually banning someone. We can turn the spawn protect time up with mani mod. Make it something like 30 seconds instead of the five it is now. After the first autoslay for FF (not even a full TK, just any amount of FF) within 30 seconds of round start there aren't too many team killers who will wait, round after round, 30 seconds to keep killing a teammate.

When someone TK's the first time I don't think any admins warn unless it was an admin that got killed. smile Even then, it can be hard to tell if the person is going to go crazy and keep TK'ing until they're banned. This is what worries me -- admins that start banning people after two or three TK's. Accidents happen and if you're not right there to see it then hasty, ill-informed decisions by admins can be just as bad as two or three TK's. Also, mani mod would autoban them at five TK's.

The only exception I see where you should avoid giving players the warn / punish / kick / warn ban treatment is when someone TK's, quits, joins, TK's, quits, joins ad infinitum. I've got an interesting solution to that though. smile What if we consider the player quitting to avoid punishment the same thing as step 4 in the process:

1. Warn
2. Punish
3. Wait
4. Kick
5. Warn
6. Ban

Instead of us waiting to see if they're going to calm down, we consider them quitting and rejoining the same thing as us kicking. So the player just jumped from step 2 to step 5, which means all I have to do is admin say, "You're a TK'er dick, here comes the ban stick!" and then actually ban them. So the new steps for this kind of misbehavior would be:

1. Warn
2. Punish
(Player quits and reconnects)
5. Warn
6. Ban

Doesn't this make sense for all violations where the players quit before they've been punished accordingly?

Is this an acceptable compromise?
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Pockyninja, Wed Jan 04 2006, 03:03AM

One thing that dosent get fixed by your TK thing is the team flashes at the start of rounds. What pussies do when they want ot hurt the team but dont want to get any spawn attacking. I think that should be punished and treated as spawn attacking. [ Edited Wed Jan 04 2006, 03:08AM ]
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
aborted fetus, Wed Jan 04 2006, 07:36AM

Paper trail sounds good to me!
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
MiddleMan, Wed Jan 04 2006, 09:35PM

The team flashing should get the same steps.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Wulfram, Thu Jan 05 2006, 01:32AM

Lets just put it this way, those are the guidlines, try to keep to them. But we all have some common since, use it and if you feel you should skip steps for your specifc situation then do it.

If you fuck up, I am sure you will hear about it.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Thu Jan 05 2006, 01:47AM

Yes, try to stick to the rules as much as you can. Again, following this process will almost always guarantee that I have a clear series of log entries that make admin abuse very hard to argue. Also, I'd rather not have this turn into a team balance issue where people don't give a shit unless I'm around. I'm not saying everyone doesn't give a shit about team balance (which is still very important to me), but watching the server remotely and actually playing there, where you know I'm watching, brings out two different sides of several admins... This is all about admins being accountable for their actions just like players have to be accountable for their actions. In a nutshell: if admins can't follow rules then why should players? [ Edited Thu Jan 05 2006, 01:48AM ]
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
aborted fetus, Thu Jan 05 2006, 03:02PM

You guys are picking gnat shit out of pepper! When in doubt, use your best judgement and respond to the situation. The steps/ paper trail sound like a good idea to me.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Omni, Thu Jan 05 2006, 11:15PM

im fine with this compromise(sp?)....if i have time/remember i will try to furthe my original idea about seperate punishment codes...but that is if i am bored and remember wink
heehee
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Sat Jan 07 2006, 01:07AM

Alright, if no one has any further comments I'll add it to the MOTD this weekend. I want to make sure we're all clear: try the 6 step process, but if someone skips out on the "punishment phase" and rejoins you can move to step 5.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
Kalibur, Sat Jan 07 2006, 01:14AM

what about step seven? step seven is go to there house and KICK the shit out of them.
Re: Punishment Escalation Procedure
alcosatz, Sun Jan 08 2006, 07:57AM

Alright, I've updated the MOTD and adverts on FTC and FTC2. Thank you for sharing your opinions.