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| The Fate Of Kever | ||
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| emerican |
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Registered Member #164
Joined: Tue Mar 07 2006, 12:07PMPosts: 3146 |
no this isnt the longest ever (bolt thread with surfer_gurl) but its close im not voting i dont know kever and never played with him |
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| Mr CowboY |
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Registered Member #418
Joined: Fri Sep 08 2006, 08:41PMPosts: 65 |
I dont know if you should ban her without any proof. I could understand if she was really cocky after she had that score and was annoying people but she is a person who respects others and is well mannerd. Personally i like the chanllange to try and kill her everyround and it makes the game a little more interesting. I think the only fair thing to do will be to make a video of her playing when she is doing good and post it and everyone can jugde and make an honest decision if shes hacking. but if its ruining the server and the people that are coming there........you might have to ask her to leave. |
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| alcosatz |
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FT Classic Op
Registered Member #39
Joined: Fri Dec 02 2005, 10:30PMPosts: 1545 |
First let me say that it is exciting to see that forums are not dead, and I appreciate the amount of thought and detail nearly everyone has put into replies. I've spent the better half of this afternoon trying to respond to individual posts but that would take all week! I am going to just try to put my perspective on the line. I wanted to give my initial post a neutral feel, and not really indicate which way I wanted to see this go. Issues like this in the past have been influenced when a few of the ops and upper admins inject personal opinion right off the bat. I wanted to avoid that and see what the results would be like. Anyway, I've tried to break this up into a few different topics: 1. Too Much Pressure! I understand it is frustrating when people are asking an admin to ban a hacker and the admin feels too flustered to respond or handle a situation. My understanding of the only true complaint concerning Kever is the sheer amount of demands made by players to ban her. I find myself in a similar situation most times when I swap someone in an attempt to enforce team balance. I'm comfortable saying that that at least three out of five non-regulars I swap will say something to the effect of "wtf? why was i switched?" It is frustrating because players don't bother to read rules or pay attention to imbalanced teams, but I try to always respond with something along the lines of "swapped for team balance, read MOTD and adverts." Simple, straight forward, and it gets the point across, right? Apply that logic to when queried why you, as admins, allow Kever to play. Couldn't we just say "kever has been here for months. no one can prove she hacks" or something very similar and get the point across? After all, only one person has put forth any effort to prove she hacks. If someone really wants to push the issue in-game then tell them to get a demo and post in on our site. Admins are here to make the server a more entertaining place but we have to enforce principles that may seem unpopular among some players. We get pressure to satisfy the needs of new players (potential regulars) and regulars. In this instance we do not have to pick one or the other -- we can speak up on behalf of skilled regulars like Kever if complaints get too numerous in game, and we can do so in a manner that does not always alienate those players that are unfamiliar with her or FTC. 2. Demos For Hacking Bans Are Not New When I publicly asked for demos of Kever hacking last Fall I got an overwhelming... two... from the same person. Out of the number of people banned in FTC history I would wager that hacking accounts for a very small portion of those bans. Of those bans related to hacking, I would say that the vast majority of them were done for incorrect reasons. This is the reason I prefer demos when admins want to ban regulars. I asked last Spring that hacking bans be accompanied by demo(s). The original reason was because an L3 admin banned 3 Stripe from FTC2 and 3 Stripe, being a regular and an all-around decent person in my experience, deserved more justice than that. Why should the same courtesy not be extended to an FTC regular with over 100 hours such as Kever? 3. We've Done This Before There are two players with whom we have faced similar challenges. Bowser: I'd rather not say who, but some of our senior admins and long-time regulars continually cast doubt on whether the FTC'er that I affectionately referred to as "Bow Wow!" hacks or not. Myself and others were constantly being asked to ban him. Through 141 hours last year he held a 3.01 KDR in 2006 on FTC -[link]- GTFO if you don't believe people were constantly complaining about what a hacker he was. Bowser went on to join FT and become an L2 admin, and somehow we all didn't give into the pressure (some of it internal among admins!) to ban the guy. Unfortunately Bowser doesn't frequent FTC much anymore, and I do not know the exact reasons, but he put in plenty of time and there were several months that he was regularly playing. Again, I'll raise the point that a few malcontents aside, Bowser was accepted as a player deserving of calling FTC home -- surely the same is possible with Kever? Wulfram: I recall a noose-bearing mob of angry FTC'ers that wanted Wulfram banned back in August of 2005, many notable L2 admins among them. FT Classic had been up for less than two months and I got my first taste of getting in the middle of a group of admins wanting to lynch a supposed hacker. At the time, Wulfram was on FTC a lot and, while he was a bit of an arrogant prick  , he was helping ease my fears of having FTC fail shortly after it started. I was able to mediate the situation and relieve some of the pressure he was getting from other admins and FT. I would like to think I was rewarded because he was a (fairly) loyal admin and regular for several months after that. Obviously he is not still here (I believe he checked out to run with old clan, WLP, last year), but my point is that fighting for one regular, even if it means going against the wishes of many constituent regs and admins can end in success for the server community as a whole.4. We Can Do This! I'm hoping the above examples will show that players such as Kever have been tolerated, and even embraced by the FTC community (and FT Community Clan) in the past and we have the capacity to do so again. My vote is 'no.' 5. Righting Lies Now, a quick matter of setting the record straight. BuBBLe GooSe wrote ... I say Yuppers to the ban based on.... 1. It pisses me off when FT's, Regulars and Newcomers constantly claim "Hacker, ban Kever" and as an admin, there's nothing that can be done because the demos that were provided were 'inconclusive' based on solely Alex's opinion. I figure that the opinion might have been swayed given their IM buddy buddy relations and no offense to Alex, but many people would have viewed the demos in a different light. Like you said Alex, you haven't got a chance to play all that frequently so for most FTCers, the 'demos' play on everytime we are in spec. 2. I'm pissed when Newcomers say "How do you let that hacker play on your server?" directed at admins yet based on Alex's special intrest toward this individual, nobody can do anything. You do mean to offend and you are completely wrong when you say state "the demos that were provided were 'inconclusive' based on solely Alex's opinion. I figure that the opinion might have been swayed given their IM buddy buddy relations and no offense to Alex." The first time I talked to Kever outside of game was via forum PM, and that was a direct consequence of Omni banning her on December 31. The problem with your obnoxious and immature innuendo is that I received the demos on October 28. I can not view two demos of an alleged hacker and have opinion skewed by someone that I will not talk to until two months in the future. I hope others feel as disgusted as I do by your cheap and sleazy suggestion. Edited Wed Jan 31 2007, 01:39AM |
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| Jesus |
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Jesus not HeyZeus
Registered Member #370
Joined: Mon Jul 31 2006, 03:49AMPosts: 332 |
I gotta say that since what Bleek said is probably true then I am kinda sad I guess in a nostalgic sort of way b/c I won't have somebody that pwns me so bad that I have to raise myself to a higher level to kill her and it is bad that we ran her off like that All that being said though I will NOT miss the constant complaining of everybody on the server everytime I go on there and she is on there. And as for what Glitch keeps saying about giving him admin and he will deal with it there are a couple things I have to say in regards to that the first being how would that solve anything you getting admin would not solve the fact that people bitch at any admin who is on when kever is on and I know for sure that you would not be on all the time so you could be on there when kever is on so, no offense is meant by this statement at all and I hope none is taken and yes I know it sounds kind of elitist but oh well, at least in this situation with what you have said you getting admin would NOT help the situation at all. I have to agree with Goose that there is a lot of controversy surrounding her and it does get really annoying and grates on my nerves and does not make me feel that great when I have to ignore what everybody says over and over again especially when its a lot of the regs on there who say it. And then to those of you who say oh well if we deal with kever like this nothing good can really come somebody else like steel will just take her place and to that I say maybe getting rid of him would not be too bad of a thing because of the way he acts. I'm gonna use a bit of logic here and yes conclusion I come to is not very fair to kever but here it goes anyways...It seems to me that the way that disruptive players on FT servers have been dealt with before is by banning them. We have already established, unless you have not been paying attention at all and have been hiding under a rock these past months that kever is a disruptive player whenever she is playing. So by using what is called precedent, which is what is used at least in United States law, the thing to do would be to ban her. But she is a nice person and doesn't break any rules you say...correct you are she does seem to be nice and does not break any rules but she is disruptive nonetheless and by that fact I go back to saying that we should use precedent here and do what we have done in the past. I swear I had somewhere I was going with this but I kinda lost my train of thought I hope some of what I have said makes sense and yes I know it was a lot of rambling on but to sum it up real quick I'll just say that she is a nice person and doesn't break rules and therefore people say she should not be banned but she is disruptive, even though its not completely her fault she is, and going by precedent she should be banned. Overall I am still not completely sure on what to do here but I think that she has done the mature thing that I know a lot of people would not have done and she actually left to find another server. I have to say that I don't have anything against her and that it is sort of sad to see her go but maybe now I can actually play without having my head chewed off about allowing a hacker to play, and yes I know Glitch I could ignore it all but you know what it's not really that simple and until you have been in put in the position we have then I don't think you really have a right to judge us on our decision. I hope I offended nobody with this post it was not meant to offend anybody and if I did I apologize for that I just had to say what I did. |
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| havok |
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Havok
Registered Member #442
Joined: Thu Sep 28 2006, 06:41PMPosts: 115 |
Proposal: You say Kever isn't as good on ct and other maps. Have a talk with Kever and ask him/her to play ct if they wish to play on FTC. This will cause less drama. That is, if it is true that kever is not as good on ct. Good to see the forum/clan come together on this one.
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| O_Mega |
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Inconsistant Ownage Device
Registered Member #59
Joined: Sat Dec 10 2005, 06:12PMPosts: 1058 |
Personally I think people over estimate her, yes, if she doesnt hack, which I dont think she does, she is good, but people dont seem to see how she plays. She plays in the back everyround, without fail. Ive talked to her about it and she admits she sucks at rushing. Being at the rear of your team in a few nice spots allows you to get alot of kills without dying, people see a huge score and call hacks, but dont watch her tactics, just her shooting. Never the less, she seems to be always looking the right way, but maybe thats just luck. Anywhoose I wouldnt ban her, but I see the trouble caused and all i can think is if the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. | ||
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| Jesus[tzahal] |
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![Jesus[tzahal]](/media/avatar/100x0/upload/mango_kiwi.1172003384.jpg)
Registered Member #530
Joined: Wed Jan 03 2007, 10:56PMPosts: 807 |
Wildcard23 wrote ... Steel and Kever are in the same league. However, Kever is respectful in game and Steel is not. Steel constantly bitches at people in game, he's disrespectful to everyone that isn't an admin, he constantly makes excuses when he is killed saying there was lag or just randomly saying that is bullshit, and should someone lose the round for his team, he doesn't hesitate to let them know that he thinks they suck. I have heard more complaints lately about Steel hacking and his conduct ruining the gaming experience for those playing than I have heard over Kever. At least Kever is respectful in game. Therefore, if we are going to ban Kever and tell her that she is going to have to play on an expert server, then we need to ban Steel as well. For nothing else, just to tell him that he needs to find an expert server to allow the rest of our members to enjoy themselves and not have him kill 5 or 6 people each round and then brag about how he is such a badass. Mainly directed towards wildcard: ok, first of all when do i brag? never. second of all, i only complain about lag when my ping spikes to 300 or when evilpig warps around the map. third of all, i complain about bullshit only when it happens, as in 95 in 5 with an AK without a wall. As for blaming my team for my downfall, when i rush and get teamflashed twice and die, yes i will blame my teamates. when i get shot at more than twice by a teamate, yes i will bitch. when a teamate shoots me for absoultely no reason, yes i will bitch. but when i am spectating you when you are 1v1 with someone and you die, do i say "you suck" or anything like that? no. i dont tell anybody they suck... actually, i give you tips. i can recall three accounts where i told you pointers, like aim higher. i remember a few days ago someone was spraying with the para and the bullets were flying over the enemies head, in a checkered pattern, and i said, look at the bulletholes on the wall and adapt. aim lower. is that telling him he sucks, or helping him get better? As far as talking, kever only speaks to say "hi" or ":)", nothing more, just radio commands. if you show me an instance of me bragging, show me. when i say "gg" when i ace the team, i say it because my last kill is usually on a person that killed me a few rounds earlier and said some cocky remark. when i yell "DIE" in the middle of a round, thats because i shoot them five times, and toss a nade, and while the nade is in the air i type that. you say i should play in an expert league? uhh, sure, i dont have a league. i did cal-o S6 and didnt hold up too well. anything i missed? *edit* reading omega's thread about kever admitting to sucking at rushing -- yes she has told me too. if you look at our stats, i get kills faster than her. the only problem is, i am very impatient and i decide to rush 80% of the time, and i end up going alone 75% of those times, and therefore i get a lot more deaths than her. this ties in with the haccusations against me. i was playing in another server earlier today to find another to play on when i encountered a REAL aimbotter. the screen shakes violently. i have a demo if you want to check it out, otherwise, dont accuse of hacking if you dont know how they work. i havent personally hacked, but i have spectated enough hackers to see how they work. (they being aimbot, wallhack, speedhack -- i dont know of any others). Edited Wed Jan 31 2007, 02:19AM |
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| Baghdad Bob |
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Accused H4xor
Registered Member #383
Joined: Fri Aug 11 2006, 10:42PMPosts: 350 |
Oh come on rushing is easy it is called getting an ump45 or dualies then ripping the other team apart if you can get through. | ||
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| bleek |
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#woo
Registered Member #23
Joined: Fri Nov 25 2005, 11:39PMPosts: 665 |
Guys it's pretty much over. Kever left anyways since she got tired of all this drama. Vote wise we voted not to ban her, yet it dosen't change the fact of what just happened. *Stnads up, in the middle, putting his penis away, back into his pants*----ziiiiiiip--- Guys look at us. We got all rallied up into a big fight, insulting each other, calling each other names, and acting like PMSing girls. Now it dosn't matter wheter Kever stays or goes, becouse thats not the big picture here. Look at how a little problem, can instantly tear apart, and devistate a community, so close as Fish Tank. Look at ourselves. Calling each other noobs, and what not. Spamming in game chat, to get more votes for your side. And for what? A community is seppouse to stand for one, as one, and help each other out. But, we instead of coming together to solve one problem have went about creating a bunch more by arguing with ourselves. I say enough. I say no. I say never again. I vote peace. |
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| Noname|Boom |
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That one guy...
Registered Member #250
Joined: Tue May 09 2006, 11:59PMPosts: 2603 |
I AGREE WITH BLEEK!!
I VOTE PEACE TOO!!! <3
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